⟦8f78c06db⟧

TextFile

/***** hpfloat:net.micro.68K / barrett /  2:39 pm  Dec 16, 1985*/
Does anyone here at this site know anything about hang-gliding? 

I am thinking of learning to hang-glide, but am afraid of heights.  I
do fly light planes and love the hairiest roller coaster rides available
however.  My main question is "is there a way to learn to hang-glide 
gradually?"  I have seen some films of people learning on big sand dunes
an such before leaping off of cliffs with the things.  

Dave Barrett
hpfcla!barrett
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcla!ajs /  5:57 pm  Dec 16, 1985*/
> Does anyone here at this site know anything about hang-gliding? 

Yeah.  Don't waste your time, don't waste your money, don't risk your life.

> I am thinking of learning to hang-glide, but am afraid of heights.

I wasn't, but it still got me a broken arm.

> My main question is "is there a way to learn to hang-glide gradually?"

Probably not (yet).  Five years ago, simulators were in practice non-
existent.  We got twenty seconds hanging in a triangular control bar
with a person pushing.  Next stop, rocky slopes, real gliders, and cheap
walkie-talkies.

You'd be amazed how easy it is to injure yourself.  It's the nature of
the hobby.  People with plenty of experience die doing it every day,
due to circumstances often beyond their control.  There are better ways
to get thrills.

Alan
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcms!mpm /  8:58 pm  Dec 16, 1985*/

>You'd be amazed how easy it is to injure yourself.  It's the nature of
>the hobby.  People with plenty of experience die doing it every day,
>due to circumstances often beyond their control.  There are better ways
>to get thrills.
>Alan

     I haven't done any hang-gliding myself, but I would like to try it
some day.  (I have a moderate fear of heights; it depends on the altitude
and the apparent stability of my "perch".)

     I read (or heard) that MOST hang-gliding accidents fall into two
categories:

     1) novices attempt something beyond their experience (like jumping
	off a tall building after one lesson on a gently sloped hill),

     2) experts attempt VERY dramatic stuff (like jumping off El
	Capitan in unpredictable thermal up- and down- drafts).

     Please note:  Alan Silverstein doesn't fall in EITHER category.  I
took some sport parachuting lessons a few years ago.  It turned out to be
quite safe GIVEN ADEQUATE TRAINING as I had at the time.  I suspect the
same would hold true for hang-gliding (or rapelling, or ice climbing, or
...).  The best way to find out if you can overcome your fears is by con-
fronting them in a safe and supportive environment.

     My recommendation:  check out any "school" before you sign up.  Ask
about their safety record, the terrain where they offer lessons, amount of
"ground school" training before first "flight", etc.  Above all, make sure
that you TRUST any prospective teacher.  Even if you have no logical reason
to distrust someone, don't try something like this unless you trust them.
(This is where your rational mind needs to work with your intuition.)
Otherwise you could easily get hurt.

     This is likely to be unknown territory for you, so be prepared and
you will likely have a more enjoyable (and safe) experience.  Of course,
there is ALWAYS the chance for an accident.

	-- Mike "no I wasn't crazy at the time; I WANTED to do it" McCarthy
	   hpfcla!mpm
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / dat / 12:12 pm  Dec 19, 1985*/
>> Does anyone here at this site know anything about hang-gliding? 
>Yeah.  Don't waste your time, don't waste your money, don't risk your life.

	Strong stuff!  I think you're out on a limb this time, Alan.
I've known lots of people who've hang-glided and never gotten hurt.
(and we're talking the La Jolla cliffs in San Diego!!) (they also
think it's the best 'high' in the world (and they've tried some
pretty strange things to compare!))

>> I am thinking of learning to hang-glide, but am afraid of heights.
>I wasn't, but it still got me a broken arm.

	Fine.  So I broke my arm a long time ago jumping off a bunk
bed.  Does this mean that bunk beds are too dangerous and that I 
shouldn't ever sleep in one???

	The point is that anything you do is dangerous and that the
way to minimize the danger is to take things gradually and only 
progress when you feel comfortable with your current level of learning.
At the same time realize that even sitting in a chair in a warm room
could be dangerous, so don't be so foolishly optimistic to think that
you cannot get seriously hurt hang-gliding.

	On the other hand - if you want to go for it - GO FOR IT!!!

			-- Dave "Cheap Thrills, Inc." Taylor
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcmp!rjn / 11:33 pm  Dec 16, 1985*/
re: hang gliding

I am a licensed [so what] pilot in powered  aircraft and  sailplanes.  I was
taking  hang  gliding  (HG)  instruction  four years ago (prior to moving to
Colorado).  I gave it up when I moved here.  My impressions:

* If your  introduction  to piloting flying machines is via HG, you will not
  have enough  understanding of aerodynamics to safely operate your craft in
  calm or steady-wind conditions.

* HGs which are controlled by weight  shifting do not have adequate  control
  authority   for   normal   conditions,   unless   you  have  lots  of  the
  aforementioned  understanding and fly only in ideal  conditions.  HGs with
  3-axis control offer a little more margin.

* HGs are typically operated close to the ground.  No HG designs have enough
  control  authority  to handle  gusty  conditions.  You can  safely  land a
  parachute in conditions  which are dangerous for HG  operation.  Flying in
  gusty  conditions  is the most  popular  way to crash a HG.  If you  think
  jumping is dangerous, don't take up HG.  (I used to room with a jumpmaster
  and have made one jump myself.  I think jumping is safer.)

* HGs operated at higher altitudes (away from ground  reference) suffer from
  lack of  instrumentation.  It is easy to enter a spiral dive, spin or deep
  stall (luff the sail on Rogallo machines)  without  instruments or lots of
  experience.  Spiral dives usually  overstress  the airframe; the resulting
  collection of parts crashes.

If you  insist on K-Mart  aviating,  I suggest a 2-place  ultra-light  (with
parachute), a good instructor and a calm day.  At least the ground is level.
Bring earplugs.

Bob Niland  TN-226-4014   HP-UX: hpfcla!rjn    DESK: rjn (hpfcla) /HP4000/UX
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfloat!jim /  9:10 am  Dec 17, 1985*/
Try flying across the waves on a windsurfer!  I once met a guy from
Denver who said he had tried them all--hang gliding, sky diving.  Windsurfing
offered just as much thrill with almost no risk.

The crash landings are rather painless.  I've gotten 5 feet of air right
here in Colorado.

		"Jumping Jim" Tear

/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcmt!ron /  7:56 am  Dec 17, 1985*/


I also am a "regular" aircraft (and sailplane) pilot.

I have not tried hang gliding however I have a fairly close friend who 
was into it before he totally demolished his craft. He was only bruised
by the impact but came away considerably more careful about his sports.

Besides the previously mentioned drawbacks I would like to mention the 
following:

A perfect landing consists of

   (a) Correct airspeed
   (b) Level wings ( tolerance to prevent wingtip dragging)
   (c) Correct yaw alignment   (within tolerance of landing gear)
   (d) Correct pitch
   (e) Correct rate of descent  (within tolerance of landing gear)
   (f) Correct altitude
   (g) Correct groundspeed (within tolerance of landing gear) 

Consider that the landing gear on an HG is your legs and gear collapse
is fairly common due to the low maximum speed for the gear and the 
airspeed being right in that range at touchdown.
Consider also that even calm air has some "breezes" going. 
Add to the "breezes" the fact that your control authority relative to the
velocity of the breezes is poor and you can wind up with all the ingredients
for a face plant.

Now to moderate the above, the idea of simple flight appeals greatly to
me. Unfortunately my personal risk-taking threshold is below the minimum
risk for this sport.  
I agree with Bob, try ultra-lights if you MUST . At least they have wheels.


Ron Miller


"Show me a country where the newspapers are filled with good news
and I'll show you a country where the jails are filled with good people."
					-<I forgot>

Service Engineering  (Hardware Support)
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Ft. Collins Systems Div. Home of the HP 9000 Series 200,300 & 500
Ft. Collins Colorado
303-226-3800

at: {ihnp4}hpfcla!ron
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcla!ajs /  6:36 pm  Dec 19, 1985*/
> Strong stuff!  I think you're out on a limb this time, Alan.
> I've known lots of people who've hang-glided and never gotten hurt.

Yes, but, --

> Fine.  So I broke my arm a long time ago jumping off a bunk
> bed.  Does this mean that bunk beds are too dangerous and that I 
> shouldn't ever sleep in one???

I'll be more explicit (and just as strong).  Let's say sleeping is a
zero (epsilon?) on the risk scale, and flying in a commercial aircraft
is 1, and driving a car, oh, I'd guess about a 4, and parachuting maybe
a 6, and SCUBA diving must be maybe a 7 or 8 then, comparable (?) with
climbing Fourteeners.  Based on my experience with it, I'd rank hang
gliding at around a 12 or 15.  Don't risk your life.

One thing I discovered is that being under a "kite" feels very different
from how you might guess while watching someone fly.  Not nearly as
comfortable (until airborne); very exposed.  Some people are naturals at
it; some (like me) are not.  If you are the former, and you are lucky,
and it appeals to you, you'll go do it anyway, no matter what I or Dave
say about it; good luck to you.

But, if you are the latter, you'll likely injure yourself seriously
trying to learn, because there isn't much margin for error outside a
simulator.  Look, I was gung-ho, being trained by a "professional"
training school, determined to overcome inexperience, ignored warnings
from concerned friends, was certain I could do it safely, paid close
attention to instructions, studied the subject intensely, and when I
crashed, I'd been in the air about five seconds, was about ten feet off
the ground, and was amazed that I'd actually broken anything.  A very
sobering experience.

On the way to the hospital, the trainer doing the driving informed me
that someone was seriously injured in their classes about once a month.

Gee, Dave, I guess I must be "out on a limb", incapable of giving advice
on the subject, because I survived the crash.  :-)

Alan
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcde!anny /  2:28 pm  Dec 31, 1985*/
WARNING:  Severe Base Note  D  r   i    f      t

<. . . and driving a car, oh, I'd guess about a 4, and parachuting maybe
<a 6, and SCUBA diving must be maybe a 7 or 8 then, . . .

Come on Alan!  SCUBA diving more dangerous than parachuting?  Maybe if your
parachuting off a jump tower versus SCUBA diving alone on the Great Barrier
Reef at night carring shark bait making wounded fish sounds. . . ;-)

After all, the FIRST time you parachute, you have to jump out of a PLANE! (/.\)
In the SKY!  You can SCUBA dive in a pool or a shallow lake or inlet.
If something goes wrong in the water, your buddy's there to help.  If 
something goes wrong in the sky, so long . . .

Just defending what I consider to be a fun and safe sport!

Anny (low altitude (4' or less) sports for me!) Randel
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcla!ajs /  9:27 am  Jan  2, 1986*/
> Come on Alan!  SCUBA diving more dangerous than parachuting?

Forgive me, I was just guessing, to make a point.  I don't know the
actual statistics, but you're probably right -- if you measure accidents
per hour.  On the other hand, if you measure accidents per jump or dive,
it wouldn't surprise me if the rates were similar.  Lotsa people go
diving without enough training, but skydiving requires decent training
and the accident rate is surprisingly low.

Alan "pick your poison" Silverstein
/* ---------- */
/***** hpcnof:fsd.rec / hpfcdc!donn /  9:32 am  Jan  3, 1986*/
The problem with SCUBA diving is the fact that "fly by nites" can
afford to get into the business.  A reputable dive shop will not
let you rent a tank unless you have a NAUI card (or ==) (and they'll hold
it while you have the tanks).  However there are always some who
will not do this, and some clown tries diving without essentially
any training ("Gee, I can swim, so I can dive.") and gets into
trouble.  It's much tougher to be a "fly by night" (or anytime)
when you need an airplane and a pilot's license.  Actually, the
accident rate for people with any significant training *and* who
are doing something more-or-less reasonable is not bad.  (Diving
below 150ft (or maybe less) is like starting a jump at 50000 feet:
it might work, but good luck unless you know what you're doing. 
The problem is that there isn't much reason to start at 50000 feet,
but there's a lot of interesting and valuable stuff below 150.)

I like to dive (tropical saltwater only, so I don't do it much),
and since one of the graduation exercises is diving while someone
is *trying* to make you screw up (albeit in a pool where there's
someone to fish you out), you learn to handle problems.  If you're
gutsy, try the NAUI *instructors* class: the graduation from that
is a open-water dive with known defective equipment!

Donn
/* ---------- */
DataMuseum.dk

DKUUG/EUUG Conference tapes

⟦8f78c06db⟧ TextFile

Derivation

TextFile
